Curse

Isileth · Dec 04, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Because in solo play I can enjoy the whole game. I can play through every area and on any difficulty and can kill every monster and boss.

And so can pugs. Even if it takes an extra 5 mins to form a team.
The actual gameplay isnt limited for them.

Solo play is limited in that you have to take 4 fixed builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Not only that, I don't really see it revitalizing the game for me a whole lot. If I had the ability to use 4 more heroes, wouldn't it just lower the difficulty?

If you find it to easy with 7 heroes, dont use 7 heroes.
GW is very easy to make more challenging for yourself. Be it by taking less skills, less party members, lower armour etc etc.

Scary · Dec 04, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Still after 38 pages.....

Pugs ????? Uhmm can any one tell me in how many %%%%% of the outposts
its even possible to get a PUG anymore.
Yes wel no .. you cant do you.. wel its getting less and less.
It are only those places where people get nice drops from dungeons or other
places with rare drops, where you can get some groups.
But try to do all the other places you wanna do in HM.

Really I cant understand why Anet is making this so difficult.
And if they dont want us to have more hero's in a party let them make the
hero's we can have more inteligent.
Let them walk away from AoE skills like the foe's do, and let them have the
oppertunity to use the PvE only skills to.

And yes.. I agree, you dont need 7 hero's in NM, but in HM it would be a
great step in the right direction.

Gun Pierson · Dec 04, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I'll say it again: Henchies and heroes have the same AI, i.e. they're both just as stupid. It's the customization and modes (attack, gaurd, passive) that make them different. Aside from that, they're both dumb and on the same level of idiocy. That's why you have to be pretty careful about what builds you give your heroes.

I have to disagree with that. The heroes are as dumb as the player who controls them. You can disable spells on heroes and if one has a good micro management he/she can play with them as an extension of their skillbar and so much more. I use dunkoro to duo farm UW.

Now this can lead to the conclusion that controling 7 heroes would be imbalanced. Yet we can already form a group of 2 peeps and 6 heroes and I don't see the point where that control over one extra hero would suddenly make the game imbalanced or to easy.

The difference would be that one player would control 7 heroes at once and not 2 people who control 3 heroes each. I assume that controlling 7 heroes at once is more difficult than controlling 3 heroes. Wasn't this game about skill?

I had the possibility to play at two pc's and two accounts for about a year. This way I could customise 6 heroes and drop the second account once in the mission etc. Also 100% of ecto drop in duo UW with myself. (

@ Anet)
Nevertheless I can say it's fun to make teambuilds and customise more than 3 heroes.

Bryant Again · Dec 04, 2007, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

And so can pugs. Even if it takes an extra 5 mins to form a team.
The actual gameplay isnt limited for them.

Solo play is limited in that you have to take 4 fixed builds.

Pugging can be limited by a different source: people. Sure the gameplay is all there for them, but you can't experience it with insufficient players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

If you find it to easy with 7 heroes, dont use 7 heroes.
GW is very easy to make more challenging for yourself. Be it by taking less skills, less party members, lower armour etc etc.

If that's all people had to do, why add difficulty levels to games? Simple answer: It's not fun. People want to test their skill to the max, not gimp themselves. It's also like trying to solve your own puzzle.

Now this is where you could pull a 180 on me: "But Bryant, if you want all of your skill tested, wouldn't you want 7 heroes?" Well sure, but since I can already do the whole game with 3 heroes 4 henchmen, I don't see any different results besides success.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

I have to disagree with that. The heroes are as dumb as the player who controls them. You can disable spells on heroes and if one has a good micro management he/she can play with them as an extension of their skillbar and so much more. I use dunkoro to duo farm UW.

In terms of automated AI, they're the same. Give a hero the exact same build as a henchie and you'd see similar results. That's probably the only true similarity. But if you're good at micromanagement (thank you, Starcraft) you can have some truly interesting times a head of you. But a lot of my builds for my heroes are ones where I don't really have to pay attention to what their doing.

The italicized part isn't criticism, but merely me pointing out that if the player is truly experienced that heroes can actually become *stupider* than a henchie (Healing Hands Zenmai, hooooo. /sigh.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

I had the possibility to play at two pc's and two accounts for about a year. This way I could customise 6 heroes and drop the second account once in the mission etc. Also 100% of ecto drop in duo UW with myself. (

@ Anet)
Nevertheless I can say it's fun to make teambuilds and customise more than 3 heroes.

That's what I do for my bud: He'll ask me to come to such and such outpost, ask me to put in X builds for Y heroes and I zone out. Makes him a happy camper. Also, do you duo UW with 2 computers or two windows of GW? I tried it with 2 comps and got a tid bit frusterated.

However, the "imbalancing" or "overpoweredness" isn't very much of a good example against H/H. A full party of people can have 24 PvE skills while one H/H party can have 3.

Redvex · Dec 04, 2007, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Dont get me wrong, im not saying you cant do these dungeons with henchs or heroes. My entire point is they shouldnt be mixing henches and heroes anymoer. Because your mixing two AI technologies in one game.

Henches should have been and should be updated to be as usefull or as functional as heroes to make up for this 3 hero limit. Let us see their skills, let us control them individually and alike.

Maybe not change their skills, but maybe give us a choice of 3 or 4 builds per hench to choose from. We can pay to change them for a tiny fee of 10-50g.

An elemental hench might offer a fire, water, air and earth build to use. We couldnt change their build make-up, but we could change the build they use.

Imho anet will add 7 hero when more player left the game

Fried Tech · Dec 04, 2007, 07:36 PM // 19:36

/notsigned.

you think its hard to find a good team now? imagine if everyone could travel with nothing but hero's. Goodbye MMO. Hello Oblivion. Thats why. If you want to play by yourself get a different game. One that doesn't incorperate the words "massive multiplayer online" in the genre.

Gun Pierson · Dec 04, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Also, do you duo UW with 2 computers or two windows of GW? I tried it with 2 comps and got a tid bit frusterated.

I used two laptops at the time, placed next to each other on the same desk. Moved one mouse next to the other so I could use my right hand to operate both mouses and used my left hand to control both keyboards. But yeah it can get confusing and enervating. That's another reason why I would just love to take 7 heroes on one account and character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fried Tech

Goodbye MMO. Hello Oblivion. Thats why. If you want to play by yourself get a different game. One that doesn't incorperate the words "massive multiplayer online" in the genre.

Except that GW is not an MMO, but a COOP RPG like Anet said themselves if I remember it correctly. Yet one can debate if playing with the AI is actually coop. but that's not the point as you can already play with two humans (one leaving) and six heroes or use two pc's and six heroes on your own. It's a lot cheaper, less time consuming and more fun if you can do this on one pc and with one character.

Pugs have absolutely nothing to do with it anymore. The need for pugging stopped when Nightfall arrived. That was a crucial point in pug history in this game but it's also some time ago. I remember stepping from factions into nightfall and pugging was 'over' in one day and I played on the first day of each release. Three heroes or seven heroes now, it doesn't matter at this point on that part. It can have an effect on two human six hero teams but I believe this effect will be small as buddies or families, guildies etc will still want to experience the fun together.

Imbalance has been proven to be irrelevant too if you followed this topic.

I'm having a PAT relation with all of you, we Play Apart Together and that's how I see the online multiplayer aspect since nightfall arrived.

Dev121 · Dec 04, 2007, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

DeVaNeY121.

This is not about difficulty. Everyone is well aware the game can be completed with h/h.

Its about limiting a whole playstyle. You are forced to take 4 set builds and then you have to change the other 4 to support and cover their weakness.

A lot of the game is in coming up with different team builds, being able to use different playstyle and play the game in different ways. By having 4 henchmen you are very limited.

7 heroes would allow for full team builds, a vast variety of different playstyles and greater access to the game.

Get friends? Sorry but I had to say it, your acting as if you have noone else to play with and dont give me the crap like 'NOONE PLAYS MY TIMEZONE' or 'PUGS SUCK', join a guild in your timezone and play with them.

Probably the team builds that will be made:
3 SF Eles
3 Sabs Triple Necro
1 Monk
Player

Cookie Cutting. I admit it will open builds up but its not a OMG NEEDS TO BE CHANGED NOW change, its a would be nice but not required change.

Sleeper Service · Dec 04, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeVaNeY121

Get friends? Sorry but I had to say it, your acting as if you have noone else to play with and dont give me the crap like 'NOONE PLAYS MY TIMEZONE' or 'PUGS SUCK', join a guild in your timezone and play with them.

Probably the team builds that will be made:
3 SF Eles
3 Sabs Triple Necro
1 Monk
Player

Cookie Cutting. I admit it will open builds up but its not a OMG NEEDS TO BE CHANGED NOW change, its a would be nice but not required change.

troll much? at least quote SOMETHING that would give weight to your insult?

all Isileth is saying is that it would enable greater team build flexibility and that it would be more fun.

love the way you can SEE what people will do (quit puging...) and just KNOW what builds they will use (...)

Fried Tech · Dec 04, 2007, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Except that GW is not an MMO, but a COOP RPG like Anet said themselves if I remember it correctly. Yet one can debate if playing with the AI is actually coop. but that's not the point as you can already play with two humans (one leaving) and six heroes or use two pc's and 6 heroes on your own. It's a lot cheaper, less time consuming and more fun if you can do this on one pc and with one character.

Okay. I don't see what your point is there but i'll rephrase my previous statement to make you happy. If you don't want to play with other people then go find a game that DOES NOT have any of these words in the genre description:
Online
Multiplayer
Coop
or all at once:
"Massive Multiplayer Coop Online Play"

Gun Pierson · Dec 04, 2007, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fried Tech

Okay. I don't see what your point is there but i'll rephrase my previous statement to make you happy. If you don't want to play with other people then go find a game that DOES NOT have any of these words in the genre description:
Online
Multiplayer
Coop
or all at once:
"Massive Multiplayer Coop Online Play"

My point is that the game changed since nightfall, it's no longer a game where pugging plays a central part, where playing online together is one of the main ingredients of the cocktail. No, people prefer H/H or play in small groups with heroes, guilds etc. I play guilty too. We can all see this every day now since nightfall ( vs. pre nightfall).

It's still multiplay though, it's online and cooperative, but the masses (massive) prefer not to pug. Blame the people and Anet, but not the request for seven heroes as we passed the point of no return when Nightfall arrived. But now that they took that direction, why not go all the way and make everything possible: pugs, 7 heroes.

PvP is almost pure multiplay based and you have the choice in PvE to multiplay in coop form too. You can even choose H/H but using seven heroes is out of the question somehow and I didn't find one valid argument in this whole topic why they shouldn't implement seven heroes. It has become the holy grail.

Bryant Again · Dec 04, 2007, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fried Tech

Okay. I don't see what your point is there but i'll rephrase my previous statement to make you happy. If you don't want to play with other people then go find a game that DOES NOT have any of these words in the genre description:
Online
Multiplayer
Coop
or all at once:
"Massive Multiplayer Coop Online Play"

The C in CORPG is actually Competitive, not Coop. And where does the "massive" come from? When I leave an outpost I'm only playing with whoever's in my party. If that's considered "massively multiplayer," then Diablo must be an MMO, too.

But in defense of GW, everyone labels it an MMO: IGN, Gamespy, magazines, 1UP, lots. While you can say "HAH so GW IS an MMO!," it goes against Anet: The game appeals to casual RPG players while an MMO appeals to people who like lots of endgame and constant content, something GW has little of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

It's still multiplay though, it's online and cooperative, but the masses prefer not to pug.

I'm not entirely sure about that. It takes some experience to get heroes to their full potential, something most of the playerbase doesn't really have.

TheHaxor · Dec 04, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

I use 8 heroes.

I am my own hero for being awesome.

Zhed and Acolyte are my heroes for being so leet with fire skills! They never cry when we aren't killing things fast enough. Less QQ moar pew pew!

Olias is my hero because he ownzzzz. He makes gud minions and makes them explode. Olias da pressure!

Mhenlo and Lina are also my heroes. Their never ending rez chain when one of them dies is very amusing. I wouldn't want it any other way. Their post prot ability is second to none! Why prevent damage with prot spirit when you could throw it on after the damage has already been taken?

Eve is my hero for giving me blood rits without having to ask. Other than that she is completely worthless, which makes her even more of my hero. Worthless people own!

Cynn is my hero for her ability to spread mobs with firestorm. Why be efficient when you could be... inefficient!

Gun Pierson · Dec 04, 2007, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I'm not entirely sure about that. It takes some experience to get heroes to their full potential, something most of the playerbase doesn't really have.

I was mostly talking about PvP there I admit, I'm not brave enough to say the same about PvE as I just don't know it either. It changed though when heroes were introduced, that's for sure. The option was suddenly there to customise 3 heroes. But it was welcomed by the masses as pugging 'died' in one day. Apparently people prefer to play this way even if they can't use the heroes to the fullest. It's also about the fun ofcourse in PvE.

It's true it takes experience and time to use the heroes to their full potential but I don't see that as a counter argument as one might aswell see it as a growing curve. And that's the way I experienced it, I can only speak for myself ofcourse.

AuraofMana · Dec 04, 2007, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Why make GW a MMORPG when you can make it just an RPG with the ability to chat?

Isileth · Dec 05, 2007, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Pugging can be limited by a different source: people. Sure the gameplay is all there for them, but you can't experience it with insufficient players.

My point is that is not a hard limit. If the pug has enough time to gather a full team they can have a full team.

No matter how long a solo player has, he will always have to take 4 henchmen.
That is a hard limit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If that's all people had to do, why add difficulty levels to games? Simple answer: It's not fun. People want to test their skill to the max, not gimp themselves. It's also like trying to solve your own puzzle.

What do you think most difficulty levels do on a game?

You take more damage (aka less armour)
You deal less damage, or require more to kill (non max weapons, less attribute points)

With GW you can go even further than that. Unlike most games you could take it to the point its impossible to do something. So you can make it exactly how hard you want.

That is testing your skills to the max.
Its like golf when you give shots to the other player. You are putting yourself at a disadvantage to make it more challenging.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fried Tech

/notsigned.

you think its hard to find a good team now? imagine if everyone could travel with nothing but hero's. Goodbye MMO. Hello Oblivion. Thats why. If you want to play by yourself get a different game. One that doesn't incorperate the words "massive multiplayer online" in the genre.

Ok first GW isnt an MMO, its a CORPG, Competetive Online Role Playing Game.
One of the defining features of a CORPG is instanced areas and AI to team with.

Second, those who actually want to pug are currently able to pug.
Those who dont want to pug are doing something else, be it solo or playing with their guild/friends.

Why should your gaming experience be more important than theirs? Why should they be forced into pugging just so you have someome to play with?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeVaNeY121

Get friends? Sorry but I had to say it, your acting as if you have noone else to play with and dont give me the crap like 'NOONE PLAYS MY TIMEZONE' or 'PUGS SUCK', join a guild in your timezone and play with them.

Ok well thats why you read the rest of the thread before posting

Some people only play for short ammounts of time, if you have 30-40 mins to play waiting for a guild member to get ready can easily take 10 mins of that, thats a huge ammount of your game time to lose. With solo you can just load up and go.

There are also people who go afk very often for long periods of time, its unfair to force that on another person. As much as im sure my guild members would be understanding, no one wants to sit around for 15 mins 2-3 times a mission.

Then not everyone wants to play with other people.
GW is advertised as a game you can play solo. So people should be able to play solo without the current disadvantages of h/h.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fried Tech

Okay. I don't see what your point is there but i'll rephrase my previous statement to make you happy. If you don't want to play with other people then go find a game that DOES NOT have any of these words in the genre description:
Online
Multiplayer
Coop
or all at once:
"Massive Multiplayer Coop Online Play"

And just again its CORPG.
Also, if you want everyone to play together. Find a game that doesnt advertise as a game you can play solo.

Bryant Again · Dec 05, 2007, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

No matter how long a solo player has, he will always have to take 4 henchmen.
That is a hard limit.

Soloer's limit in terms of enjoyment is 3 heroes, and puggers' limit in terms of enjoyment is having to find people to play with. To be able to do the latter is dependent on numerous factors while the former depends on none.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

With GW you can go even further than that. Unlike most games you could take it to the point its impossible to do something. So you can make it exactly how hard you want.

...

That is testing your skills to the max.

Facing against a harder opponent that's stronger/more skilled than you are is testing your skills and can be a true challenge. Making it harder on yourself is creating an artificial challenge and is not satisfying in the least.

Isileth · Dec 05, 2007, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Soloer's limit in terms of enjoyment is 3 heroes, and puggers' limit in terms of enjoyment is having to find people to play with. To be able to do the latter is dependent on numerous factors while the former depends on none.

Your missing the point here.
The pug has no limit in actual gameplay. All it would have is reduced speed in forming up. Gameplay would remain the same. Time to form a pug is not a hard limit.

Solo has a hard limit on that no matter what, you currently have to take 4 henchmen. It doesnt matter if you spend extra time forming a team. Its a hard limit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Facing against a harder opponent that's stronger/more skilled than you are is testing your skills and can be a true challenge. Making it harder on yourself is creating an artificial challenge and is not satisfying in the least.

And if you become weaker....in comparison they are stronger.
The fact is lets say a skill was added that killed everyone in aggro. Would you use it? Because if not you would be artificially limiting yourself.

GW isnt balanced. Especially with pve skills. I dont take stuff like pain inverter because it makes it to easy.

As for an artificial challenge I disagree. Your skill remains the same. That is whats being tested.
If you take non max armour your skill isnt being lessened in anyway. Its just now you have a way of putting yourself into an area where the challenge is suited to you.
Just because you have set the level of the challenge, doesnt mean it is no longer a real challenge.

Bryant Again · Dec 05, 2007, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Your missing the point here.
The pug has no limit in actual gameplay. All it would have is reduced speed in forming up. Gameplay would remain the same. Time to form a pug is not a hard limit.

Solo has a hard limit on that no matter what, you currently have to take 4 henchmen. It doesnt matter if you spend extra time forming a team. Its a hard limit.

I know what the point is - but what's it matter if you can't find anyone to play with? With heroes and henchies, you don't have to have that worry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

And if you become weaker....in comparison they are stronger.

But it's not using my full strength. I want to test my full strength and ability, unhindered, and to its fullest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

The fact is lets say a skill was added that killed everyone in aggro. Would you use it? Because if not you would be artificially limiting yourself.

That little snippet could get us into a whole other argument regarding PvE skills. Please don't go there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

As for an artificial challenge I disagree. Your skill remains the same. That is whats being tested.

...

Just because you have set the level of the challenge, doesnt mean it is no longer a real challenge.

Guild Wars is much more like a game of Dominoes. Kind of absurd but bear with me:

Dominoes: You survey the area, build your pieces around it, and see if it works.

Guild Wars: You look up the monster types in the area, make sure your team can handle them, then go out and test it.

In Guild Wars, the skill is in the build. How well you do, how much ass you kick is all dependent on it. The build either works or it doesn't: If you gimp yourself too low then it just won't work. It's like trying to add 2 and 5 to get 15, no matter how hard you try you cannot turn that 2 into a 10.

Bekkr · Dec 05, 2007, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

I use 8 heroes.

I am my own hero for being awesome.

Zhed and Acolyte are my heroes for being so leet with fire skills! They never cry when we aren't killing things fast enough. Less QQ moar pew pew!

Olias is my hero because he ownzzzz. He makes gud minions and makes them explode. Olias da pressure!

Mhenlo and Lina are also my heroes. Their never ending rez chain when one of them dies is very amusing. I wouldn't want it any other way. Their post prot ability is second to none! Why prevent damage with prot spirit when you could throw it on after the damage has already been taken?

Eve is my hero for giving me blood rits without having to ask. Other than that she is completely worthless, which makes her even more of my hero. Worthless people own!

Cynn is my hero for her ability to spread mobs with firestorm. Why be efficient when you could be... inefficient!

This post totally wins.